Day 27 Transcript: Holocaust Denial on Trial

Part I: Initial Proceedings (1.1 to 9.5)

IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE 1996 I. No. 113 QUEEN’S BENCH DIVISION Royal Courts of Justice Strand, London Tuesday, 29th February 2000 Before: MR JUSTICE GRAY B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING Claimant -and- (1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED (2) DEBORAH E.

LIPSTADT Defendants The Claimant appeared in person MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and Second Defendants MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt (Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell & Company, Clifford’s Inn,

Fetter Lane, London EC4 Telephone: 020-7242-9346) (This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell & Company) PROCEEDINGS – DAY TWENTY-SEVEN

(10.30 a.m.) MR RAMPTON: I think Mr Irving has something to say, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving? MR IRVING: My Lord, I understand that today I am going to be cross-examining Professor Funke, which is after he has been presented to the court. There are two things I want to mention first. First of all, I understand from today’s Israeli newspapers and yesterday’s Washington Post that the Defence now have the Eichmann papers.

In other words, they are going to bring in the Battleship Eichmann in a frantic attempt to rescue their position. I would be very grateful if I had the chance to read them as early as possible rather than just being presented with them piecemeal. MR RAMPTON: Yes, of course. We have not read them yet. If they contain relevant material, those relevant parts will be disclosed at once. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that enough?

MR IRVING: My Lord, do they not now become discoverable now that they are in their custody? MR RAMPTON: No, not unless they are relevant. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not know quite what we are talking about is it a diary? MR RAMPTON: I do not know. I have not seen it. It has come on e-mail. It is about 600 pages of memoirs. That is all I know. If they contain relevant material, then the

relevant material, plus context of course, will be disclosed. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is a slightly unconventional approach, is it not? Normally, it would be a document which would be discoverable if it contained any relevant material. You would not normally redact the non-relevant material. MR RAMPTON: You are allowed to redact that is the case of Guardian v. GRE. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Only for good reasons, in my recollection. MR RAMPTON: No, if it is irrelevant.

I do not really mind as it is in the public domain anyway. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it? MR RAMPTON: Yes. It will be from tomorrow morning. The Israeli government are going to release it to the public at large, so I do not really mind. But I do not want to lumber the proceedings with a great fat document if it does not contain anything relevant. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Nor do I. It just seems to me, in terms of what Mr Irving should see, he probably ought to see for himself and judge for himself.

MR RAMPTON: Yes. It is not a problem. It is just that we have not looked at it ourselves yet. It is not even in readable form at the moment. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It may feature in your cross-examination of Mr Irving, I suppose. MR RAMPTON: It may well do. I will know by the end of the day

whether it will, and he will immediately get a copy. MR JUSTICE GRAY: He ought to have the copy by close of business today really, ought he not? MR RAMPTON: I agree. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. Thank you. So that deals with that. MR IRVING: My Lord, inform me, please. Is it not automatically discoverable now that it is within their custody, possession and power? MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are going to get it.

MR IRVING: Just so it can be quite plain, the whole document rather than a redacted version. MR RAMPTON: No. I made a mistake. I thought it had come through in e-mail and has been put into readable form. Apparently not even that has happened yet. There is something the matter with the electronics. MR IRVING: I recommend Macintosh. MR RAMPTON: I do not know what the problem is because I am completely ignorant on those matters, so I have to surrender to others.

MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, the order I am making, unless I am told that it is electronically impossible to comply with it, is that you should be provided with a copy. MR IRVING: In electronic form if necessary. MR JUSTICE GRAY: In electronic form if necessary, of the Eichmann document by close of business, by which I mean, let us say, 5 p.m. today.

MR IRVING: I am indebted to your Lordship. The second point concerns the videos. I see that preparation has been made for display of videos. I have no notion of which video is going to be shown.

It may well be that I would have objections to make to the videos for the reasons that I have already adumbrated to your Lordship, namely videos that have been edited in some way or prepared for broadcasting with sound effects and violins and subtitles, which may have been tendentiously translated, and the rest of it. I see the equipment is there.

I certainly have a day of cross-examination of Professor Funke to do today and I think that I should be told in advance what the videos are and be given a chance to make representations. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have some sympathy with that. MR RAMPTON: What I propose to do is to ask Professor Funke to lay the ground for these videos, because I do not think it is right to spring them on Mr Irving or your Lordship just like that, by asking him.

Your Lordship will know that at the back of his report there is an appendix containing a list of names and descriptions. I am going to ask him to go through the important characters in that list, to expand on who they are and what they stand for, then to ask him how far he is aware that those people have had contact with Mr Irving, because Professor Funke has had access to Mr Irving’s diary correspondence and so on, and to ask him the nature of those contacts speaking to

us, for example, and the extent of them. That I hope is a short cut through what is a very voluminous and in some senses rather intricate report. Then I propose to show the videos which, as far as possible, we have stripped of editorial content. Most of them simply show people speaking, including, to a large extent, Mr Irving himself on a number —- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I am not a jury and I am quite capable, I hope, sorting out the wheat from the chaff.

MR RAMPTON: Precisely — on a limited number of occasions in Germany in the 1990s. What Professor Funke will do is to identify Mr Irving’s fellow travellers, if I can call them that. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Will he also identify in advance what film is going to be shown so that, if Mr Irving has an objection, he can make it. MR RAMPTON: He or I or Miss Rogers will do that. MR JUSTICE GRAY: How long is the video going to take? MR RAMPTON: They can be very short.

One of them is really quite long, but I do not believe it needs to have the whole of it shown. Most of them are really quite short. One is about 10 seconds. MR JUSTICE GRAY: The total? MR RAMPTON: Total about an hour. MR RAMPTON: The long one I spoke of is about 70 minutes, but there is an awful lot of, if I may use the word, ranting,

not by Mr Irving alone, in the course of that video and one does not want to see the whole of it, necessarily. One merely needs to whiz forwards so that Professor Funke can say who the people are. That is 70 minutes but one does not need to watch the whole of it. The rest in total are about 45 minutes. If I said an hour for the videos and about three quarters of an hour in preparation, that will then set the scene for cross-examination.

MR IRVING: My Lord, if it is purely, as I understand it, what Muller would have called visual materials, then I have no objection to them being shown. But if in any attention is paid to the content of what is alleged to be said, or the extracts taken, then of course I would want advance notice of them. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us leave it like this. You are going to get some idea from Mr Funke’s evidence what these clips are going to be.

If you want to raise an objection when you know what you are going to be presented with, then do so. Shall we leave it like that? MR RAMPTON: I will tell Mr Irving now what the meetings are. There is one on at Agonou in Azas on 12th November 1989 organised by Mr Christophersen. There is a meeting in Munich under the legend or heading “Vaheit macht Frey” on 21st April 1990. There is a meeting at Passau under the aegis of the DVU and Mr Gerhard Frey on 16th February

1. There is what is called the Leuchter Congress,

which is the long tape, on 23rd March 1991, again in Munich, and that is one in which a number of names which will be familiar to your Lordship, if not now, certainly by end of this exercise, feature. Then finally there is what is, in some ways we would suppose, perhaps the most striking, which is an outdoor rally in a place called Halle in what used to be East Germany but by 9th November 1991 was in the reunited Germany. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very helpful. Thank you very much.

MR IRVING: I think I will only have problems with the Halle one because that particular piece of film has been very heavily chopped around, cutting out very important parts of what I said. So, as I said before, if this is purely a rogues gallery, I have no objection to the court being shown it at this stage. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have we got a transcript of what you said at Halle? MR IRVING: We have made a transcript of as much as is on the film as far as we possibly can.

MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just what is on the film? That is your point. MR RAMPTON: I have not got that. MR IRVING: It has been on my website for the last year. MR RAMPTON: That is a peculiar way of making disclosure. Oh, it is not. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It has probably been disclosed as well.

Anyway, that is the one you may be objecting to? MR IRVING: Purely to the text of the film rather than the rogues gallery pictures of these alleged sleezy friends of mine. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. MR RAMPTON: Now the Professor needs to be sworn.

Part II: Rampton Questions Dr. Hajo Funke (9.6 to 85.21)

Section 9.6 to 48.6

< Professor Funke, affirmed. < Examined by Mr Rampton QC MR JUSTICE GRAY: Herr Funke, do sit down. MR RAMPTON: Professor Funke, have you made a report for the purposes of this case? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, I did. Q. [Mr Rampton]: So far as it contains statements of fact, are you satisfied that they are as true as they can be? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I think so. Q. [Mr Rampton]: And, so far as they contain expressions of opinion, are you satisfied that those opinions are fair?

A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I think so. Q. [Mr Rampton]: My Lord, Professor Funke’s English is not quite as good as Dr Longerich’s was. The subject with which he is dealing is in some senses quite subtle and in other senses quite technical. I am going to invite him at any stage, if he feels uncomfortable in English, to go into German. He must go slowly because otherwise the interpreter will not be able to keep up. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.

MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you can manage in English, Professor, it makes life easier. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I try my best. MR JUSTICE GRAY: And a bit quicker but, if you feel difficulties, then have resort to the interpreter. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Thank you. MR RAMPTON: Professor Funke, could you please be given your report? Have you got your report there? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. Q. [Mr Rampton]: At the back of your report there are two appendices. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.

Q. [Mr Rampton]: Could you go to the appendix two, please? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Which you have entitled “Biographies”. Have you got the appendix there? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. Q. [Mr Rampton]: We do not need the actual report, I hope, at all, at any rate as far as I am concerned.

You heard what I said to his Lordship before you were sworn to give evidence, that I am going to go through some of the names in this appendix and ask you who they are and what they stand for, what their ideologies and policies are. Do you remember my saying that? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am going also to ask you in respect of each person whether you are able to give us in summary form an account

of their contacts with Mr Irving. Can I first take a man who is not on this list, called Michael Kuhnen? Who is or was Michael Kuhnen? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Michael Kuhnen was one of the leading neo-Nazi activists in the 70s, throughout the 80s, up to April of ’91, when he died. He was up to renew the NSDAP of the period of ’33 to ’45. Q. [Mr Rampton]: What we now call the Nazi party? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.

So he did a lot together with others internationally and nationally, to ask for relegalization of this Party. Furthermore, he referred to special groups within the Nazi regime, that is the Sturmabteilung, the stormtroopers, a more street violence orientated perception of what the new Nazis, the neo-Nazis, the neo-National Socialists should do. Finally, I want to add that he asked for a second revolution in that sense, so to overflow the liberal democracy.

He agitated very much against Jews, very anti-Semitic, he asked for pure Aryan race based state. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Give me again the year that he died? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: April 91. Q. [Mr Rampton]: April 91. Amongst the neo-Nazi or far right groups now in Germany, are there any that can be described as Herr Kuhnen’s direct heirs or successors? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There are some, especially I have to say there is a person called Christian Worch and there is another person called

Gottfried Kussel from Austria, and they both have close links to NSDAPAO, person Gary Lauck from the United States. These are the three most important — there are others around this camp, like Thomas Wulf from Hamburg, Christian Worch is from Hamburg, Uschi Worch from Hamburg. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Is that Mrs Worch? Is that Frau Worch? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.

MR IRVING: My Lord, would it be helpful if the witness at each stage indicated whether it is going to be alleged I had any contact with these names. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is stage 2. MR RAMPTON: Be patient, please. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, stage 2, do not worry. We will get to that. MR RAMPTON: Can you say whether a man called Ewald Althans is in this grouping or not?

A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, he is, but he did not found with the others one of these groupings in the 70s and the 80s was a group called ANSNA, action front of national socialists, and so forth, and then a group that is of importance for the period in the 80s and early 90s called Gesinnungsgemeinschaft, a group of the like-minded of the new front. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Who do we find in that — have we got an abbreviation for that because I cannot say it each time?

A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: We can call them Gesinnungsgemeinschaft. Q. [Mr Rampton]: All right. I will try. Gesinnungsgemeinschaft.

A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: We can call them also it is done sometimes in the social scientists reports “the Kuhnen crew”. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Right, who nowadays is in the Kuhnen crew? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Nowadays? Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes– no, go back to the time when Kuhnen died, who do we find in the —- A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: At that time it was Christian Worch, it was Althans, it was Uschi Worch. So far I see at the side lines also Ingrid Weckert, Gottfried Kussel, Thomas Wulf, and others.

Q. [Mr Rampton]: Right, now taking them in turn, or, first, have they inherited, those people, the same kind of neo-Nazi ideology, particularly in relation to anti-Semitism, that was propounded by Kuhnen before he died? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: They did not change the course of their ideas, as far as they are stated publicly. There are tactical, you know, changes but of lower degree.

If I may add, nowadays means this year and some of them are still active like the Christian Worch near to the NPD extreme right-wing extremist party. That in itself changed in the course of the 90s to a more radical strategy. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can we stay at the moment, please, in the early 90s at and around the time and immediately after the time of Kuhnen’s death? At what date in Germany did Holocaust denial become illegal?

A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There were in the middle of the ’80s several laws set through the parliament that this is a kind of incitement

of racial hatred and defamation of survivors and killed people. So in the middle of the ’80s, there was a strikening, a sharpening of this kind of law that this is forbidden and again in ’94, and so there was again renewal of this, of this law. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, now among those people that you have mentioned — I am going to take them in turn — you have had access, have you not, to Mr Irving’s correspondence, his diary and material of that kind, have you not?

A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, I did. Q. [Mr Rampton]: First, may I take Mr Kuhnen who is now dead? Did —- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, I am so sorry to interrupt. For the transcribers’ benefit, shall we just spell the names that we are really concerned with? MR RAMPTON: K-U-H-N-E-N. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you. MR RAMPTON: “Michael”. Can you tell us whether or not Mr Irving had any contact with Michael Kuhnen and, if so, to what extent?

A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far I see, but you know better, to a limited degree he saw him once, at least — I have to be very precise — they were at the same meetings. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Right. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: In 1990 and so far I recall in ’90 — no, in ’90, especially in ’90, and in late ’89. They were at the same meetings.

MR JUSTICE GRAY: How many meetings? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: At least two I recall in Hagnau and on the 21st April of ’90 and — no, this is it, yes. MR RAMPTON: Yes. MR IRVING: Could the witness be specific about what he means by being at the same meetings? Does he mean that Mr Kuhnen was in the audience or on the platform next to me? MR RAMPTON: That is a good question. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a fair question, yes. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Exactly.

He was in the audience and —- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, who was in the audience? Mr Irving was in the audience or Mr Kuhnen was in the audience? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Excuse me. Q. [Mr Rampton]: It is quite important which actually? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Mr Kuhnen was in the audience and Mr Irving spoke in the, you know, a Congress [German] in Munich at the 21st April ’90. MR RAMPTON: Yes, then what about Ewald Althans? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is very different.

Mr Irving had close contacts —- Q. [Mr Rampton]: Pause, sorry, I forgot. Althans is A-L-T-H-A-N-S. Ewald is E-W-A-L-D. Sorry. MR IRVING: Mr Rampton, most of the names are on the list that I have given to the transcriber. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I did not realize that. MR IRVING: She will be able to find them eventually, but they

are in the sequence of my questions rather than your questions. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very helpful, Mr Irving. MR RAMPTON: Tell us now about the relationship, if there is one, between Mr Althans and Mr Irving, Professor. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: If I may say so, it is a very close relationship, so far I got it from the diaries. Of course, this is a limited source, but also by the disclosures and by other social scientists, researchers.

Althans was very active in that period of time as a kind of mediator of the Zundel, of the Ernst Zundel, one of the leading revisionists, and he was a kind of pupil, if I may say so, of the late Otto Ernst Remer, one of the so-called heroes of the neo-Nazi scene. MR RAMPTON: If I hold my hand up, can you pause because it means that something you have said has prompted another question? We will come back to Althans in a moment. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: OK. I will restrict myself. Excuse me.

Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, only if I hold my hand up otherwise you continue. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I will look at you. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can you just tell us a little bit about is it Otto Ernst Remer? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Otto Ernst Remer, right. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Who was he? Is he still alive? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, he died in the middle, in the later ’90s. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Tell us first who he was. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He is perceived as one of the heroes of the crushing down

of the coup attempt of the resistance movement during the Nazi period in 20th July 1944. He was in one of the Berlin battalions to crush the coup d’etat attempt down and since then, after ’45, he was perceived. Q. [Mr Rampton]: What rank in the Army did he hold at the time when he crushed the 20th July plot? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far I recall, I am not quite sure, I have to look it up, a Major. That is a kind of middle high range below the General level.

Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, we know what a Major is, I think. It is roughly the same, I imagine, in Germany. What rank did he achieve after he had crushed the coup? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He got up, but I cannot recall to what degree. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Sorry, I should not have interrupted you. You continue with his place, please in this scenario which you are painting for us.

A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So maybe I should say two sentences to Remer to finish this —- Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, then we will go back to Althans? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — for that period of time. He was then very active in one of the early neo-Nazi circles, after ’45. So he was with founder of the Sozialistische Reichspartei — cofounder, excuse me, of the Socialist Reichs Party, I would say, and these were clear cut people who tried to renew National Socialism.

If you may imagine that at that time there was a lot of applause in parts of

the population in Germany, and because of that but also by, you know, convincing value reasons, this party was forbidden in ’52. So after that the famous Fritz Bauer who did the Auschwitz trial in Frankfurt had a court from the state side against court —- Q. [Mr Rampton]: Action? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — procedure against Remer statements in the early ’50s. So there was really something to him.

Then he stayed course, if I may say so, throughout the ’50, ’60s, ’70s and got some resonance again in the ’80s and especially in the ’90s with a very harsh, I would say, neo-Nazi course of the so-called Remer Depechert(?). This is a little magazine, kind of magazine. Q. [Mr Rampton]: You told us that in some sense Althans was a protege of Remer? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right. Q. [Mr Rampton]: How exactly did that happen and what does it mean?

A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: As a young boy, Althans is in the ’30s still, of 14 or 16, he joined Remer and got very intense lessons by Remer’s convictions, and he referred himself in several statements, I mean Althans referred himself to this Remer like convictions and he said that they came from him to a degree. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Now, what relationship does or has Althans had with some of the other people you have mentioned, for example, the

Worchs and Kussel? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: They were at the period that is of interest, in the period that is of interest, very close. So they interacted, they had their quarrels, but they interacted a lot to prepare revisionist congresses, demonstrations, and I may add to widen their influence to the new free zone for influence, that is to say, the former GDR, East Germany. That was a very fruitful field after the falling down of the Wall.

Immediately after that —- Q. [Mr Rampton]: Explain as briefly as you can why that was a fruitful field for the activities of these people. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The authoritarian GDR regime lost not only control but all sorts of convictions that many people in authoritarian regime. This took place especially in the 80s, I am very sure.

So a lot of various youngster groups spread and came to the fore, leftist, rightist and, in the middle of the 80s, in the face of the decay of the former authoritarian GDR regime, the extreme right-wing skinheads, very violent groups, took over in the scene out of the formal youth groupings and youth movement. Since 86 or 87 we have had really a fascist scene that were very brutal against foreigners already at that period. So they were there without a control in 89 and early 90.

This was the situation in which the far right groups, and especially these neo-Nazis we are talking about, said, OK this is a chance to widen our influence, to make and to

steer and to be an avant-garde of male youngsters movement of that kind. Q. [Mr Rampton]: We are going to see the film shortly. One such occasion as you have described with lots of these young skinheads took place at Halle in November 91, did it not? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, this is right, but also before and after. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Where is Halle is my question? We are ignorant English in this court!

A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Halle is around one hundred kilometres or so south to Berlin in East Germany former GDR. Q. [Mr Rampton]: In the former GDR? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, I am not sure I am aware of the extent of Mr Irving’s connections with the likes of Otto Remer. Althans you have dealt with I think. Otto Remer: Is there a connection alleged. MR RAMPTON: I have not dealt with him. I will do that. I do not want to take too long.

At the same time I do not want to cut any corners. Are you aware whether or not Mr Irving had any contacts with Otto Ernst Remer before he died? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I think so. During the meetings. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do we see Otto Ernst Remer in any of these films or not? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, we will see them, if the videos will be shown. Q. [Mr Rampton]: I pass from Althans to somebody called — I will take them out of order because I want to stick with what you have

just told us, but I am coming back to some other names afterwards. What about Gottfried Kussel, the Austrian? Where does he stand in this? What is his position? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Gottfried Kussel is perceived as one of the three dominant successors of the Kuhnen crew, the Gesinnungsgemeinschaft. Aside of Christian Worch, who was the organisational leader, so to speak, and aside of a third person, wait a minute, Gottfried Kussel, Worch, I come to him in a minute. Q. [Mr Rampton]: All right.

A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Gottfried Kussel was and is an Austrian who joined this kind of attempt of renewal of the Nazi party, and he was eager to prepare paramilitary groups by so-called Wehrsportgruppe — can you translate that? THE INTERPRETER: Military exercise groups, military style support groups. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So he was very active in that, it was his part. MR RAMPTON: Dressing up in battle dress with guns? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Marching around in the woods?

A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: And using old weapons they found from the Second World War or using Bundeswar weapons, if they get them, using weapons of especially the army of Austria. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do you take that kind of activity seriously? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I did not do it up to 89, I have to say, because up to 89 there was such tiny little groups that we just looked over

as social scientists, but since they got some influence and even widened this influence in the early 90s, you may recall that there was a brutal wave of violence against foreigners with 70 killed peoples within three years. So with this I was very eager to analyse it a bit more. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes I understand that. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor, when did the Berlin Wall come down? I should know. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: 9th November 89, so two years before this Halle meeting we are coming to.

MR RAMPTON: I have two diversions for you, I am afraid. The 9th November is an anniversary of something else, is it not? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. It is the most loaded kind of anniversary date we have. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Apart from the 30th January perhaps, or the 20th April? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, it is even more loaded, if I may say so. MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are a bit elliptical at this stage. MR RAMPTON: The 30th January is the speech in the Reichstag in 1939.

A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Hitler’s birthday, if I may add, is 20th April. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Tell us about the 9th November. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There was a coup d’etat of Hitler and his comrades at the 9th November 1923, the so-called —- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Putsch?

A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: March to the Feltan Halle. You discuss it here. MR RAMPTON: Tell me about that. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. Of course 15 years later, 9th November, the so-called Reichskristallnacht, the night of the broken glasses, and again 9th November 1989. This was, by the way, the reason that the authorities did not dare to use this as a kind of national anniversary date. Q. [Mr Rampton]: No. As you said, it is a bit loaded.

Do you know whether Mr Irving has had any contacts with Gottfried Kussel? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know. Again, the same as it is with Kuhnen, if I may say so, on the same level. They were at this same meeting, especially in Halle, and he has seen him, so far as the video shows, but maybe he sees it different. But the video is, I think, very clear on that. And the like. So no mentioned connections in the diaries and elsewhere.

Q. [Mr Rampton]: Now we come to somebody who I think we do find fairly often in the diaries, two people, Christian Worch and his wife Ursula or Uschi Worch. Do they appear in the diaries? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. This is, I would say, the interactions between David Irving and Christian and Ursula Worch, as intense as they were with Ewald Althans. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Characterize, if you will.

A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I just counted the interactions so far we got it from the disclosures, from other sources and from the diary of David Irving, 26 in three years. A lot of interaction

between others and David Irving and the Worches. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Others such as whom? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Others like Karl Philipp, another very interesting person in this network. Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am coming to him. Karl Philipp. Anybody else? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. Christian Worch was one of the main organizers, as I said, of the neo-Nazi movement between 89 and 93, the period that is of interest here. By the way, furthermore, so he is at the centre of this Kuhnen crew after his death.

Q. [Mr Rampton]: Is he still active? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He is sill active. He organised a demonstration at the 29th, so one day before the 30th January 2000 in Berlin, against the attempt to build a memorial of the Holocaust, a very neo-Nazi like demonstration, very —- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I just ask this? Are you saying that Mr Irving and Karl Philipp have had contact with each other? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, very much so.

Karl Philipp, Ewald Althans and Christian Worch are those with whom David Irving had the most intense interactions at that time. MR IRVING: My Lord, I think he ought to specify, if he says I had 26 contacts, what he means by contacts. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think that was Karl Philipp actually? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, that was Christian Worch.

MR IRVING: If we are to use that kind of statistic, I think it would be useful just to telephone —- MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you want to, up to a point. MR RAMPTON: Absolutely right. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am anxious to get the broad picture at the moment, but can you explain what you mean by interactions or contacts? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is all sorts of interactions to prepare things, to take sides, to be invited.

So, for example, at the 3rd March of ’90 David Irving was invited to the group. He especially had, I have to say, in Hamburg, the so-called nationalist, this is a bunch of little tiny groups. So he was invited to give one of David Irving’s speeches there, and there were, of course, the Nationalists, so part of this neo-Nazi camp, in that region, that is to say in Hamburg, and, on the other hand, new invited East Germans around the new built other group like the Deutsche Alternative.

So just to say the minimum that groups of the neo-Nazi camp around Hamburg and groups of the new organized groupings of East Germany came together to hear David Irving at the 3rd March of ’90. This kind of interaction, preparing speeches, tours and the like. The same holds true, if I may add this, in preparation of the event of the 9th November ’91, in Halle. This Halle event was interesting in the regrouping and further organizing of the neo-Nazi movement in the early 90s. They tried to

combine their groupings and you will see it on the video. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can we just pause there? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. Q. [Mr Rampton]: These summaries are taken from your report. We can see an illustration of what you are talking about, my Lord, if we take the second file, RWE file, and turn to tab 11. Could the witness please be given that? Could you turn please, Professor, to the second page in the summary which you will find at the beginning of that tab?

It has a (ii) at the bottom of the page and we are looking at some dates. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Say it again, excuse me. Q. [Mr Rampton]: The second page of the summary at the beginning. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. Q. [Mr Rampton]: We see some dates from March 1990 to August 1991. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right. Q. [Mr Rampton]: We do not need to read them out unless anybody wants me to. Would you just read them to yourself and continue down to the end of 9th November ’91 on the following page.

A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. (Pause for reading). Q. [Mr Rampton]: Now, if one reads on, one sees that they went on corresponding with each other through until June 1993. Can you please just look at the entry for the 1st January 1992? It is the middle of page (iii). A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. Q. [Mr Rampton]: You, or rather Miss Rogers, has written summarising your evidence, letter P, that is Mr Irving, to the Worches,

using the informal address “du”. What does that signify in German if one addresses people in that form? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It signifies a close relation, that they know each other by private level. Q. [Mr Rampton]: How do you then respond to a suggestion, if it be made, that these Worch people were just informal slight acquaintances of Mr Irving who sometimes turned up to his meetings? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No. They are of central importance.

You let me read the page before, and it is stated that they met not only at the 3rd March but on the next day, Althans and Worch together with the plaintiff. Then Althans organized something with the help of Worch. That is the 21st April, the first revisionist Congress in Munich that was a joint organization. It is very interesting that you have joining the revisionists and the like with these kind of clear cut neo-Nazis.

Then they met again the next morning with Wilhelm Staglich, another —- Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am going to ask you about that entry for 22nd April in a moment. You say a close relationship, had Worch been present on these occasions when Mr Irving has spoken? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Has Worch spoken on the same occasions? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is several times the case.

For example, at the second so-called Leuchter Congress at the 23rd March ’91 and again at the 9th November ’91, and so far, yes, these are

occasions. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: They planned to invite Mr Irving to the Wansiedel meeting. This is very important for this scene. The Wansiedel meetings every year in August, remembers the death of the hero in that circle, Rudolf Hess. Mr Irving did not come to the Wansiedel meeting because he did not want, as the diary shows, to take sides openly with Michael Kuhnen, but, as we see, he did with the other person. This is Christian Worch.

MR IRVING: Would the witness just explain what he means by taking sides with Michael Kuhnen? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far I recall your diary, but you know it better. MR IRVING: May I put it to the witness that in fact I made it quite plain I would not attend if Kuhnen was going to be there. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right. Taking sides. But, you know, if I may add — no, I should not. I see. Go on. MR RAMPTON: Who is Rudiger Hess?

A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He is one of the activists in the scene and the son of Rudolf Hess. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can you turn to the entry in the summary for 22nd April 1990 please? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr Irving’s diary records that he had breakfast on the morning after the Wahrheitnachtfrei in Munich with

Staglich, Hancock and the Worches. Who is Wilhelm Staglich? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Wilhem Staglich is a former judge, and is very active in these revisionists circles, quite a while, a very old man. I think he died in the middle of the 90s. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Does revisionism in that sense include any element of Holocaust denial? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is often the case, and with him it is. Q. [Mr Rampton]: With him it is? I am going to ask you some other names now.

I am going to go backwards through this summary that you have produced. Who is Udo Walendy? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I think he is one of the most outspoken persons in the Holocaust denial network and activities. He did and he is doing a magazine. I have some copies of that in my hotel, so I can show it if it is necessary. He presented to the German audience the Arthur Butz Holocaust denial attempt. Q. [Mr Rampton]: “Hoax of the 20th century”? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right, in the 70s.

I am not quite sure, the sources say that he attended Hagenau, this revisionist meeting in November 89. Q. [Mr Rampton]: We are going to have a look at that. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So he is the most, if I may say so, outspoken and differentiated in trying to make this cause. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do you know whether Mr Irving has been associated with Staglich or Walendy? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, they met in their circles of course, in their

revisionists meetings. MR JUSTICE GRAY: How do you know that? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: By the sources, with respect to this both persons, but I have to look them up because it is such a bunch of people who are interacting, interconnecting, meeting networking and so forth. So forgive me that I have to look it up. MR RAMPTON: Well we will see Staglich in some of the films and perhaps Walendy, and we can see already that Mr Irving has had breakfast with Wilhelm Staglich on 22nd April 1990.

We get that from his own diary, do we not? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. MR IRVING: That is the only entry in the diary which mentions it, is it not? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He was there around, you know. He was there often around. This is the entry mentioning, but, as you know, on the day before he was there too, and you too. MR IRVING: In the audience. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: In the audience, but you know the audience, and you know Mr Staglich, I think.

MR RAMPTON: What about somebody called Michael Swierczek? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Maybe I should spell it for the court? Q. [Mr Rampton]: No? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it might be helpful because sometimes the transcriber cannot really cross refer. That is the problem?

A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Go ahead. MR RAMPTON: S W I E R C Z E K. Yes? Good. Who is he? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He belongs to this first mentioned Kuhnen crew, or Gesinnungsgemeinschaft, and he organized an own little tiny group more in the south to make this neo-Nazi cause along the lines of Michael Kuhnen, the National Offensive NO, and Swierczek invited David Irving, so far I recall, in ’91. The success of these events were modest. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Thank you.

MR IRVING: Did you say events or event? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There were two invitations, So far as the diaries and your sources says, and they were both, if I recall, in the effect of selling books and presenting to a bigger audience. MR RAMPTON: I have not asked about the policies and ideologies individually of each of these individuals. You said there is an element of Holocaust denial in many of them, of the heirs of Michael Kuhnen, you said there was anti-Semitism xenophobia. Yes?

A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, very much so. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Is this true of somebody like Swierczek? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. In this whole neo-Nazi camp they are only little differentiations because they have to stick to their card organizations. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Let me ask you a general question then. Do any of these neo-Nazi individuals, or groups of individuals, have a

policy which is Nazi, but not anti-Semitic and anti-foreigner? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have to be very modest in answering this. I did not see any hint of this Kuhnen crew, the Gesinnungsgemeinschaft, that they distanced from that kind of rhetoric, agitation, ideology, world view. No, not any person of this I mentioned, not any person in any situation, so far I got the datas, so it is a clear cut thing. They are joining a kind of same world view.

Q. [Mr Rampton]: I cannot remember whether we have dealt with Karl Philipp or not? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, we have. MR RAMPTON: Good. I will pass backwards over him. Do you know who Ditlieb Felderer is? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Just a bit. He is a Swedish joiner of this revisionist camp, and also politically very active. Q. [Mr Rampton]: I think we are going to see him in one or other of these tapes, are we not? What about somebody called Thomas Dienel?

A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Thomas Dienel is one of the outspoken neo-Nazis in East Germany, so he is one of the East Germans who took this cause after ’89. He changed his views and parties, but he was one of the most crude or crudest anti-Semites. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Is it true that in July 1992 a Jewish leader called Heinz Galinski died? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.

Q. [Mr Rampton]: And what was the reaction of Dienel and his friends to that? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: They made bad, very cynical, jokes on that. MR IRVING: My Lord, I think it should be properly stated whether any allegation is made that I have ever met this Mr Dienel, who is obviously an extremely unsavoury character. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am trying to keep a track of the extent to which —- MR RAMPTON: That is always going to be my next question.

I just want to get a picture of this nice Mr Dienel first. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Before we paint a picture of him, he is not one of those who has a section in RWE one or two? MR RAMPTON: No, he does not. The reason I mentioned him is partly that he is mentioned in this biography section in the appendix, and one can read for oneself. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. I may just allude to Thomas Dienel, he is of some importance, if I may say so, your Lordship.

MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you start though, by explaining, if may say so, Mr Rampton, what the connection with Mr Irving is. MR IRVING: Thank you. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, of course. The connection is very simple and maybe very short. He was the inviter, together with Christian Worch, of the 9th November Halle meeting. MR IRVING: Never heard of him in my life before.

MR JUSTICE GRAY: You will get your chance, Mr Irving. We must not make this too conversational. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You heard him. He spoke before you spoke. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor, can we keep some sort of form to this? We have a system here. It is Mr Rampton questioning at the moment, so do not start conversations with Mr Irving. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Excuse me. Maybe I should add something to Thomas Dienel? Excuse me. I rely on your questions. MR IRVING: I am sorry, I interrupted.

Perhaps we ought to carry on. MR RAMPTON: We can read on page 142 of the appendix what sort of a man Thomas Dienel is on your account. Is he one of those that we shall see on the film of the rally at Halle? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, I alluded to that just before. He was the one of the organisers of the Halle rally, together with Christian Worch.

It was a joint action and at that time, to my best knowledge, he was a member of the NPD, the National Democratic Party of Germany, so they did a joint effort, the neo-Nazis and this ultra right-wing extremist NPD. But then Thomas Dienel changed and organized a new clear cut neo-Nazi group, the DNP. It is maybe not of such an interest, but the point is that he was one of them at that period of time, the most outspoken crude anti-Semites.

He, after the death of the famous Jewish representative Heinz Galinski, by the way, survivor of Auschwitz, who in

a way never could escape the memory of Auschwitz, if I may say so. I knew him very well. An effort at that city where he stayed, Thomas Dienel, he took part in an action at the 20th July ’92, following the death of this leader, Heinz Galinski, of the Jewish communities, pigs’ heads were thrown to the garden of the Jewish community with labels that read “Every pig dies, you too Heinz”. That means Heinz Galinski.

In ’92, Dienel was found saying unfortunately the younger generation has not yet killed any Jews. Q. [Mr Rampton]: What age of man is this Thomas Dienel? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He is in the 40s, I think. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am still, if I may say so, unsure on what basis you are suggesting, Professor, that there is a connection between —- A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I did not say connection.

Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Well, you said, I think, that Dienel, together with the Worches, was responsible for inviting Irving to speak at the Halle rally? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. Then I said you can call it connection. It is a connection for that given invitation and action. Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: But why do you say Dienel was involved in inviting Irving to speak? Where do you get that from? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No. It is more precise.

The demonstration in Halle, the Halle rally was organized and the invitation came from two persons, or two groups represented by these two persons.

This is Thomas Dienel, the then NPD speaker, it is very public, and on the other hand by Christian Worch. The diary shows in that sense, I realize the surprise of David Irving just a minute ago, that he was invited by Ursula Worch —- Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: That is what I was getting at. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — To come to this rally. So it was a kind of conflation of invitations, and by this he was in the scene. You know that David Irving is a very good understander of German language.

So he knew him by hearing him, by participating at that demonstration and at a very prominent level. That is what I am saying, not more, and I did not do anything more in the report. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. MR IRVING: I am indebted to your Lordship for asking that question. MR RAMPTON: We go now to man called Gunter Deckert. Before I ask you about Gunter Deckert, do you know of any connection between Mr Irving and Herr Deckert? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: By his website.

Q. [Mr Rampton]: How do you mean? That, to me, is a slightly Delphic explanation. A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: They have a long interaction by communicating and referring to each other. He, Deckert, invited David Irving to speak in Weinheim at a given period of time, the early ’90s, I think, in ’90. So there was a clear cut

each other knowledge of what they have stood for and that they stand for. Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can you tell me what sort of information they exchanged on the website? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have to say only to a limit because it is so much to read, if I see the web sites of David Irving that I restrict myself, but to a degree he refers to the court things Deckert was in because of the event in Weinheim.

Deckert got debated imprisonment by doing this event in early, in the early ’90s, I think in ’91. So David Irving is repeatedly referring to this kind of aftermath of this event. MR IRVING: It is actually an appeal for funds for the family of Deckert, is it not, while he is in prison? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Excuse me? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I think we had better just leave it to you to cross-examine later. It seems that Deckert is somebody you were in fairly regular contact with.

MR IRVING: No problem with that one at all. MR RAMPTON: Well, then is this no problem about the contact? Can we know something about Herr Deckert himself and his views, please? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Deckert is one of those who is very near to the hardcore revisionists and he got the NPD Chair in ’91 to ’95, and he was one of the persons who radicalized in this period of radicalization of right-wing extremist movements in

Germany because of the scenery, especially in East Germany, he radicalized the NPD. This is, if I may say so, out of the perspective of a social scientist, a very interesting, you know, change at that period of time, because that means in the following years that the interaction between the neo-Nazis and the NPD grew.

And finally after all this neo-Nazi — no, after a bunch of these neo-Nazi groups were banned by the German authorities in ’92 and ’93 and ’94 and ’95, the NPD was the so-called still formally legal but ultra right-wing extremist party who took over, and organized this little tiny neo-Nazi groups to a degree in their camp.

So we have the interesting thing, just to finish it with one sentence, that at the end of the century we had a kind of joining efforts of the Christian Worch camp on the one hand and the NPD camp on the other conflating in the demonstration of 29th January through the Bahnhof Gate against the attempt of a memorial. MR IRVING: What year was that? 29th January what year? A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: 2000, just to give a kind of overview how this conflation took place. MR RAMPTON: Good.

I have only three others on my list at the moment. We may have to ask further questions when we look at the tapes, Professor. A man called Thies Christophersen, tell us about him. Tell us, first, whether he has been associated with Mr Irving, will you?

Source Information
Original Publication: 2000-02-24
Digital Archive: Focal Point Publications
Accessed: June 3, 2026

See Also

• David Irving v Penguin & Lipstadt — Jan 1995 (Article)
• Index: Lipstadt Trial Documents (Article)
• The defeat of the denierDanuta Kean reports on how Penguin p (Article)
• Irving v Lipstadt: Trial Documents (German language) (Article)
• Documents on David Irving's early clashes with Professor Deborah Lipstadt (Article)