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Unless correspondents ask us not to, this Website will post selected letters that it receives and invite open debate. |
Art Butz of Chicago, Sunday, January 18, 2004, was outraged at Mr Irving's rebuff to an over-talkative waitress. So were others...
Waiters:
preferably seen, unheard?
There has been uproar in Australia and elsewhere about David Irving's remarks about the Costa Mesa waitress (Radical's Diary: December 10, although in this published version they are much softened.) Mr Irving is unrepentant: "Waiters, like children, should be seen but not heard."
DAVID Irving's Radical's Diary (Action Report No. 25) describes a lunch he had in southern California:
"When the waitress, a withered old retainer by whom however Mark seems disproportionately taken, interrupts to inquire if everything is alright, I say: 'It was, until you interrupted our conversation. Please go away. And don't interrupt again.'"Mark is shocked. I don't understand these American customs, even after all these years."
I am shocked too.
David
Irving responds:
YES, I have received many comments on that little episode. I replied to Professor Butz: "Sorry, Art: In the UK waitresses do not interrupt conversations, and if they do in the USA they should learn not to. It is not good manners."
We do not expect a bus driver to stop in mid journey, and come down the aisle asking passengers if they are enjoying the journey; or airline pilots to do the same; or dentists, or doctors, or mail carriers, or any other employee. Waiters do it for one reason: it is code-speak for Don't forget your server, I expect a gratuity.
I am well known for tipping generously, particularly at Mimi's, the restaurant in question. But such gratuitous interruptions, coming as they often do during an intense conversation which is best not interrupted, result in a reduction of the amount I leave for the server, rather than the opposite. Call me cantankerous if you will: but this particular interruption came at the end of a single-handed 5,000-mile drive across the United States, with another 5,000 miles still to go, and I rather hope that I don't get that waitress again. I guess the feeling would be mutual.
Here is the debate which my Radical's Diary entry generated in Australia, courtesy of Frederick Toben's Adelaide Institute website:
HAVING read about David Irving's impatience with the
American waitress and the resulting comments concerning
his reaction to her interruption, I would like to
volunteer that there is a cultural difference here.
During my five years of research and teaching in England,
British waiters and waitresses simply filled my tea from
their pot without interrupting me or asking me a
question. Unlike us noisy, loud Yanks, they quietly go
about tending to their customer's needs at the dining
table. Being born and raised in America and acculturated
to American norms of doing things, I paid no mind to our
interrupting waitresses. But after the refreshing
respite during my research and teaching in England, I
returned to discover a heightened sensitivity to being
interrupted in midsentence by waitresses. Many times I
thought to say the retort that DI was bold enough to
make, but didn't. Cheers, Robert
IF David Irving wants to air his comments in Action
Report, I think it is mischievous for others to hone in
and publicise these remarks. This really amounts to
trivia and gossip. Maureen
FREDRICK! -- ditto to your comments! Regardless of the
outward appearances! Whether guests are present or not,
let your table etiquette be faultless. Show some
consideration/respect. Address everyone with courtesy --
to show you follow the laws of good conduct and
courtesy.
Usually the custom for well-mannered
and well-bred individuals, is to always display the gift
of good manners, followed by gentle and polite
conversations/replies in unknown places -- lack of
etiquette-indicates the neglect of the tenets of good
breeding! -- Regards, Vicky
IF what Irving writes is true, then as a Canadian, I am
shocked too. But as my British father -- later a
naturalized Canadian -- used to say, insulting and being
rude is natural to "upper-class" Brits because they are
trained to be superior snobs while in school. Maybe the
trend is changing.
[..."the upper class" knows how to behave and only upstarts thereto flounder in their behaviour -- is this owing to the fact that 'class -thinking' is false consciousness?-- Fredrick Toben]
Perhaps we could benefit from Benjamin Franklin, who "farted proudly" at politicians but was a master of politeness. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/sim-explorer/explore-items/-/1583940790/0/101/1/none/purchase/102-3045974-7861750) Also, "On his first trip to England, in storm or calm, he was always the same: sober, polite, speaking little, keeping his troubles to himself and lightening the burdens of others with the charm of his presence. Everyone liked him." (http://209.87.142.42/y/f/f11.htm) Franklin obviously learned foreign manners faster than Irving! :-) Kindest regards, David
Pow!
AMERICAN customs -- Art, Fred, Mark, Just a few words.
We're old timers and don't have time for newspeak. I've
been in the so called movement for freedom all my life.
During this time, in numerous states, individuals -- who
didn't know one another -- had similar remarks about DI.
Some of these men were from the creme de la creme. When I
was a kid it was said that personality defined man's
definition. You see, that was the layman's term and it
was really okay.
When studying for my doctoral degree, I
was told about the five major variables of personality.
Because psychology is not a science, we can get to the
chase without any semantics. Here, one could use two
words that are generally prevalent: (a) Traits; and (b)
characteristics. The character of any individual who will
act as you describe, demonstrates a rotten intrinsic
mould. Such behavior paradigms denote obvious facts: (1)
A disregard for the feelings of another human being; and
(2) A disrespect for those in one's environment. Bottom
line: Such an individual, as you described, would do the
same to you (especially if you crossed him).
Dozens of patriotic men, of different
Euro-American ethnic backgrounds, have indicated that DI
has the most primitive behavior, is rude and obnoxious. I
have no personal contact with the man and so cannot
present more time on this matter. However, in all
probability, all those indicating the traits of DI can't
be wrong. Look, when I was distributing AB's book to
ministers within the Polish Gov., some disliked Germans.
Others were merely full of trepidation. None were
rude.
All privately admired Prof. B. To say
such publicly could have cost them their lives. Yet, not
a single official -- privately -- could induce anything
but praise towards Mr. AB. On the other hand, if I had
shown the book to an individual belonging to the "best of
all people," a trait similar to that attributed to DI
would have proven a disorder...
Sometimes we are overjoyed with great
writers. At the same time we cannot separate the pen from
the man. I have no idea why you shared this with me. To
me it's old news. Besides, I believe my few lines will
make the adjudication of what you already know, easier. I
hope so. Friends, it is one thing to argue. It is quit
another to have a primitive (in a suit) within one's
environment. Nuff. As always, all the best,
Bruno
REGARDING Irving's bad manners: I am inclined to agree
that most Americans, at least those with whom I am
acquainted, are naturally inclined to exceptional good
manners but I am sorry to say that, as a British citizen,
this is becoming less the case with my fellow
countrymen.
I have always held the opinion that
good manners are a mark of a civilised people but then
you get bad eggs in every nation. It is a cultural thing,
with Arab nations, especially, offering a genuine
hospitality as a matter of course ... their exceptional
good manners following a strict code. Woe betide those
who transgress it.
In the case of David Irving this could
be a wanna-be "great man" imitating a genuinely great man
whose memory lives on in a way that Irving's never shall.
Irving is an admirer of Sir Oswald Mosley but
never an active supporter of Mosley, as I can claim to
have been. Mosley's late secretary, Jeffrey Hamm,
recalls an episode in his autobiography,
ACTION REPLAY, published in 1983.
Hamm travelled to Le Havre in France to meet up with the
Mosleys in a hotel at midday to take down some dictated
letters.
After three hours delay Sir Oswald and
Lady Mosley arrive. Sir Oswald said, "We have a lot of
work to do, I think we'll have that table over here". No
lunch was ordered, although Hamm had anticipated some and
was suffering the pangs of hunger after three hours wait,
and the patron was waved aside after enquiring if they
wanted a room.
When Lady Mosley ordered some coffee
and rolls for the hungry Hamm, Sir Oswald looked
disapprovingly, allowing Hamm only a sip and a bite.
After using the hotel for several hours in order to
complete their work, Mosley ordered one bottle of wine
and left Hamm to it with the parting words of, "I don't
think we'll come here again. It was rather noisy".
Hamm, ever loyal, poses the rhetorical
question of whether this was arrogance or contempt and
then goes on to claim that it was really the "supreme
self-confidence of a man conscious of his great talents,
driving himself hard and demanding equal dedication and
devotion to duty from all who served him, impatient at
any petty impediments to the grand purpose".
Make of this what you will. Was Hamm
being sycophantic towards his leader or did he recognise
that true greatness transcends what some would regard
asbourgeois pettiness? Irving's blunt remarks to the
beleaguered American waitress are another matter
altogether. To tell someone who enquires after one's
well-being to "go away" is not only arrogance but
threateningly hostile.
I have no doubt that Irving is
acquainted with the story of the Mosleys' meeting in Le
Havre and wrongly thought he could pull off something
similar in California and win admirers for having done
so. Unfortunately, Irving lacks the style found in true
greatness and comes out of it with the attitude of an
obnoxious barrow boy. That Irving actually boasts of this
episode in his self-obsessed ACTION
REPORT is remarkable for its insensitivity. "I do
not understand these American customs [good
manners] , even after all these years", seems to
suggest that Irving has learning difficulties and his
long-suffering American admirers must now be looking
elsewhere for a revisionist champion.
Who needs Irving, anyway? "Please go
away", is a phrase that springs to mind. --
Robert
IRVING! At a speech Mr. Irving held in a hotel in Durban
some years ago, during question time I raised the
question: "Mr. Irving, have you had any access to Russian
archives?" Unfortunately I asked: " -- have you had any
access, (stressing the last syllable) instead of access
(stressing the first syllable). Irving on the spot made a
fool of me before fifty listeners because of wrong
pronunciation. Sometimes he can really be a tactless
bastard. Schwacke with a grin.
Pow!
Dear Fredrick, I have dined in a few restaurants where
they have taken to the American affectation of asking
"How's everything? or "How's your meal?" or "Is
everything alright?", usually several times whilst my
group is eating. May I suggest that:
- If the waitress wanted to know how everything is, she'd have to ask some one a hell of a lot smarter than me;
- If the waitress wanted to know how much I had enjoyed my meal, the least she could do is give me the courtesy of letting me finish it uninterrupted as by then I could have given a reasoned and factual reply. Mechanics don't ask you how well the car is going halfway through a tune up;
- If anything was not alright, I would be perfectly capable of summonsing a member of the staff myself.
I do find it rude for an unknown person to interrupt
me mid chew (or gulp) and I believe that this situation
has been brought about by the American system of every
person who does anything for you expects a
gratuity.
This constant interruption is merely a
fishing opportunity for money. A meal out is meant to be
with friends, not sundry hangers on who will dive in as
soon as you pause mid forkful.
I was once asked "How did you find the
steak?", and I replied that it would have been easier if
it wasn't hidden under a lettuce leaf.
If I have been well watered and fed, I
will always leave something extra for good service given,
but to me good service is meant to be neither seen or
heard unless it is summonsed. Yes, manners are
important...from both sides. Oh, and by the
way..."Have a nice day!". David
HI Guys -- I would imagine the question put to Irving and
his companion was "Is everything alright, sir?". This is
a standard question which American waitresses are obliged
to ask after a customer has eaten a few mouthfuls of food
in order to avoid lawsuits arising from contaminated
food.
If the answer is "No" then the food
will be removed. If the answer is "Yes" then don't expect
to sue the diner if you later go down with e-coli
poisoning as you have agreed that everything is alright.
There is no getting round this -- answering "I'll let you
know tomorrow" will be taken as "No" -- and the food will
be removed, the manager will be called and you will be
expected to leave (without being billed) and to not
return.
I am not trying to defend Irving's
rudeness, only to shed some light on the probable
circumstances. Persecuting someone who is only doing her
job is indeed inexcusable. She would be fired for not
asking the question. Not that she has ' employment' as we
understand it. In most US 'Greek' diners the waitresses
work for tips alone and are merely permitted by the
management to work given tables at given hours. That
permit would be withdrawn if she did not cover the diner
legally by asking the required question.
American society extends across a much
wider spectrum of behaviour than in Europe and elsewhere.
The most mannered people I have ever met have been
Americans -- and the biggest, rudest arseholes too.
Having said that, I've never met
anything nastier than an Englishman. I recall one fellow
warning me to be careful because "there are some real
nutcases in New Jersey". I could only reply that he had
obviously never visited England. By comparison with
Britain, New Jersey is tame. In New Jersey you really do
have to cross the Mafia to get in trouble.
In England your only crime needs to be
that some other fellow's girlfriend is looking at you. In
fact she is probably looking at you in order to provoke a
fight, since English women traditionally love to watch
their men fight. Regards Peter
Fredrick Töben comments: Most Americans have a gentility and politeness that I admire. There is something morally wrong with individuals who are not shocked as Butz and Mark are -- there is such a thing as manners because morals and manners maketh man! Any comments?
[Website note: The above letters are published unedited. Unfortunately Mr Toben publishes letters without return email addresses. The "bruiser" images by the way are a memento of a raised paving slab in Key West one dark night in 1998]
David Irving