From PRO file WO.208/4178
[no German text available]
C. S. D. I. C. (U.K.)
The following conversation took place between:
General der Flieger [Karl] Bodenschatz (Chef des Ministeramtes Ob d L [Göring]), Captured Reichenhall, 5 May 45
Information received l4-19 Jun 45
[. . . ]
BODENSCHATZ [talking about Himmler]: Among his family -- they can't pin anything on him -- he lived absolutely simply, Ho only had just an unpretentious flat in Berlin and anyone can go and look at his little house on the Tegernsee. A man who works like that needs his four hours' rest. It has just four rooms. The foreign currency which was found there was what he needed for all his secret agents, say in Afghanistan and Persia. Even recently they sent some Ju. aircraft to Persia, which were smashed up there and the people were stranded there -- they had to have money. Towards the end he was the most powerful man after the Führer. He devoted a terrific amount of work to questions of race. He was an expert on all the races in the Ukraine and in Ruthenia. His dream was (to incorporate in Germany) everyone who spoke German or even who merely had German blood in his veins. It was their damned way of carrying things to extremes; it was 'blood and race' that led us into the abyss.
SCHLIEBEN: How did Göring react to the Jewish pogroms?
BODENSCHATZ: It was all revolting to him. He would have tackled the Jewish problem quite differently altogether. If he had been in authority he would have solved the Jewish problem humanely. He would have let the Jews emigrate, but he wouldn't have had any of them shot at all. Or those concentration camps -- we only had the Oranienburg camp set up --
SCHLIEBEN : And the camp at Stettin; and there was another one at Schneidemühl.
BODENSCHATZ: No, we had nothing at all to do with those, only the Oranienburg one, and that was abolished after a year, and that one had nothing at all to do with the burning of corpses and all that. Of course, one thing about Göring was inexcusable, and that was that he never visited a concentration camp once. He can say to them: "I have nothing to do with the affair." He wasn't at Dachau either; he didn't visit any of them. I was always with him. He only visited his own camp, the one at Oranienburg. There were 2-300 men there and then it was abolished; it was in a brewery. But that was revolting to him. He often talked to me about it and said: "This lawlessness worries me." You see, several people in his own family circle were anti-Nazis. His brothers in the Rhineland were Freemasons. Then his own brother, Albert Göring has been a deadly enemy of ours to this day, and they were having continual trouble with the Gestapo. Once they were arrested and I had to go aver there.
SCHLIEBEN: Was Göring also watched by Himmler?
BODENSCHATZ: Certainly. I was certainly watched. I always said to him: "Herr Reichsführer, you're bound to have a file on me. You can note down everything about me if you like, I'm not doing anything wrong," So he said: "You must under stand, you are in constant contact with the Führer and with people who are in contact with the Führer one must know what they are up to!"
SCHLIEBEN: Did you know Himmler well?
BODENSCHATZ: Well, I simply can't imagine it, I was shocked to the core that the man could have organised anything like that shown in the atrocity film. Of course, you have to consider that in the Jewish question they were uncompromising, and it will yet become evident in time whether tho world will I be happy with the Jews or not, I don't know; I don't want to enter on any further discussion of that. Do you understand?
BODENSCHATZ: One can't tell. Horrible it was --
SCHLIEBEN: Frightful, disgusting! :
BODENSCHATZ: I thought when we saw the film just recently that one can't defend such things. : I would never have done anything like that.
SCHLIEBEN: Did Himmler ever joke or anything?
BODENSCHATZ: Joke? No, he was always serious. He was on good terms with Göring, whereas Ribbentrop hadn't a single friend, not even the Führer at the end. Ribbentrop has hardly been admitted to see the Führer during the last three years.
SCHLIEBEN: On what terms were Göring and Goebbels?
BODENSCHATZ: It varied, sometimes one way, sometimes the other; they were on good terms at the end.
SCHLIEBEN: Well, that a man like Himmler could permit such brutalities --
BODENSCHATZ: It's a mystery to me; I can't understand it.
SCHLIEBEN: Perhaps the Führer also ordered him to do it?
BODENSCHATZ: It was the Führer's wish; I know that for a fact.
BY C.S.D.I.C. (U.K.)
M.I.19.a War Office
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